"Transformative Journeys: Diane's Path Through Tech and Change"

In this conversation, Diane Solinger shares her extensive career journey, highlighting her experiences in organizational transformation, change management, and the importance of personal growth. She discusses the challenges of navigating change in large tech companies, the significance of understanding subcultures within organizations, and the emotional aspects of change management. Diane emphasizes the need for trust, collaboration, and the role of mentorship in personal and professional development. She encourages listeners to reflect on their definitions of growth and be kind to themselves during change.

Takeaways

• Diane's career spans over three decades, with significant roles in tech and social impact.
• She emphasizes the importance of aligning personal values with career opportunities.
• Change management requires understanding emotional aspects and building trust.
• Networking is crucial for career pivots and opportunities.
• Diane advocates for a growth mindset and continuous learning.
• Subcultures within organizations can significantly impact career experiences.
• Women in tech face unique challenges but are well-suited for change management roles.
• Self-reflection is key to understanding personal growth and career direction.
• Mentorship can provide valuable guidance during career transitions.
• It's important to set realistic expectations for personal and professional growth.

Transcript

Igor Zagre (00:01.432)
Hi, so welcome to the show, Diane. And we are extremely happy to have you with us today. And your career is truly inspiring, spending over three decades with more than a decade at Google, and in general, playing pivotal roles, leading change, and people experiencing tech. So could you start by sharing?

a little bit about your journey with our listeners and what sparked your passion for organizational transformation and social impact.

Diane Solinger (00:36.884)
Hi, thank you. It's so nice to be here with you, Igor and Shivam. Hi, everybody. I'm Diane. And yes, lots of decades of work in my past of moving through different types of organizations and across different sectors. I think the common thread for me has been personally looking at opportunities where I can learn and grow. But as I matured in my career, I also realized that

the skills and the capabilities that I have are beyond whatever the label of the title is. And so I have looked for and have expanded my horizons in jobs and opportunities that...

more aligned with my values and my skills and capabilities and give me opportunities to grow. So while I was squarely in the social sector for a long time, leading before I went to Google, I was leading an organization that focused on helping mostly technology companies make a commitment to their communities and to society. And at that time that was kind of cutting edge really. We called it CSR back in the day. People might call it ESG now or whatever, but

But it is, at that point, was really, really a big idea. And to be able to transform the mindset of the venture capital community of tech.

CEOs and to actually get to a place where it's now kind of commonplace that tech companies and other companies do have programs that support their local communities and that leverage their technology, their people and their money for impact around the world. That expectation is now just kind of commonplace. And so while I was in the social sector, it really was a transformation of a mindset and a culture. And we worked with over 800 companies to do that. And Google was one of them that was part of our network.

Diane Solinger (02:31.664)
And so I got a, this is strange, so just go with me on this. I was actually giving a reference for a friend. And as I was providing a reference for a very good friend, I got turned into the candidate. And I ended up at Google. And we're still friends, so that's good.

Shivam (02:53.273)
That's very important.

Diane Solinger (02:55.978)
Yeah, he actually has an amazing role with PWC Canada leading all their sustainability work and he's partnered there. So life is good for my friend. But at that point, I was really being a reference and I wasn't even thinking that I would go into a company. I had been advising and consulting and helping hundreds of companies build their programs, but I got tapped to come in the house and I thought, wow, what an opportunity.

to make big transformational change. At the time, Google had maybe 32 ,000 people. And I thought that was huge, because I'd been working with startups that maybe had couple hundred, and I thought, wow, what?

big lever that we could engage all these people and the resources of Google and the mind share and the products. Like what an opportunity. So I said yes and I came into Google but I came in to lead our employee giving and volunteering work and that was an HR at the time.

And wow, we need to be strategic. need to align to HR objectives. And we needed to meet the needs of our employees and make sure that everybody around the world at Google could participate. And so that was a shift because most companies that time were only doing giving and volunteering in their headquarter country. And so for us to be thinking about globalization was a big shift and that was transformational.

all.

Diane Solinger (04:26.71)
And then our team reorg because Google does a really good job at reorganizations. as many tech companies all the time, lots of change. we went into the Google .org team and that really was more public policy facing. And that was a new area of learning for me. And, additionally, it was really about getting behind the grants that Google .org was making to social impact organizations around the world and aligning our

Shivam (04:32.427)
I feel blessed for that.

Diane Solinger (04:56.576)
our products and people behind that. And while we kept our big global programs running, the emphasis shifted a bit to kind of put more wood behind fewer arrows. And that work was interesting, and I helped our team through that transformation. And many of the people that were on my team at that time are still there doing that really important work for Google and society. But I kind of like...

got the itch about people and people experience. The thing that I was seeing was that I really got energized by working with the network of champions we had around the world. And I really wanted to create and get into a space where I was working on the employee experience more. And so an opportunity came my way to go into a product team. And I went into search and assistant, but on a UX team there.

and I let our people experience. So the team was a couple hundred people, expanded up to about 600 in my time there. And we were there to create an end -to -end employee experience and to support our managers in their learning and development so that they could be good managers. And that's that.

came along, more reorgs were happening. I was reading some tea leaves. Something was gonna happen with this organization and it was a big change. And I didn't quite know what it was, but there were some overt and some covert signals that things were happening. And I realized, time for me to find something new that fed my soul again. And I went into learning and development and thought I would help with onboarding of all our new employees, which at the time was about five to 600 people a week.

And I really wanted to create a more seamless experience. had seen what new employees, as we called them, new -glers, were experiencing when they got to my team in UX and Search. They were lost.

Diane Solinger (06:50.574)
And I felt I have a lot of feeling as part of me. So I felt sorry for them. These poor people, they are lost in the sauce. They don't know where they fit. This company is so big. It's moving so fast. So I really wanted to go help build a more seamless experience for onboarding. And then COVID happened and everything just went to hell in a handbasket and everything was broken at that point. All our systems weren't working. We couldn't onboard remotely. You would think, but we couldn't. And our manager

were just floundering on what to do during this time. So I went into learning and development to help our managers.

During COVID, they were so critical, they still are so critical. I have so much empathy for managers because they not only have independent contributor work, they have to lead teams. And that balance is really, really tricky. And oftentimes people are put into managerial roles that really don't have that skill yet. They need to develop it. So particularly during COVID, it was critical.

Shivam (07:54.7)
Absolutely.

Diane Solinger (07:54.934)
And then reorg again, and I went into a central HR team to do change management. Go figure, because I have had so many changes myself, I think. My friend said, what a parallel path. How funny is that? The irony of you doing change management when you've had so many changes yourself. And so this team I was a part of had some footing, lost its footing together, separate.

It went through so many iterations, but we worked on variety of things. We worked on job architecture for HR to make sure that the job letters were, and the job descriptions were more cohesive and consistent across the company. And then we also worked on return to office. That was difficult. And trying to figure out how to put policies in place and for people in the company to identify where they wanted to be because a lot of people had moved, just like I had.

And then we worked on a new performance management system, which is still, think, just kind of landing.

Shivam (08:56.493)
I remember that, yes. Absolutely.

Diane Solinger (08:57.71)
Yes, that was a big change. At the time, what, 190 ,000 people about? So in my tenure at Google, we went from 32 ,000 to about 190 ,000 people. And when you're thinking about scaling programs and the changes that it takes to do that, it takes an army of people. You are one person trying to be the messenger of a design and a product.

And then you need others to kind of help carry you. And if I go full circle, look at my experience in nonprofit really helped me there because you never could do anything, particularly in the nonprofit sector or the social sector, without champions and volunteers. And so that same practice came into play in helping land big changes at Google. So right now I'm...

consulting, am bringing my skills to a couple of organizations in the social sector, one a very large NGO and another that

isn't squarely in the social sector but supports the infrastructure of it. And it's just really fun. One is like a startup trying to help them with their strategy and their marketing and their pitch. And the other is just a giant organization that will take so long to change a mindset. And they work in every country in the world. So I've got these two bookends of organizations that I'm really close to and finding that all those transitions that I've gone

through have been kind of helpful because I have examples from all different parts of a company and all different parts of the social sector and it's just a joy to help people do good things, feel good about their work, and feel purposeful and that's what energizes me.

Shivam (10:49.795)
Wow, that's quite a kaleidoscope of experiences, industries and change as well on that spectrum is just so vast. Congratulations for what an outstanding trajectory, Dianne. Awesome. Great, great, great. So, and you touched upon a couple of things which is so unique to Big Tech. And it seems like you are definitely one of the people who optimized that environment.

Diane Solinger (11:01.312)
Thanks.

Shivam (11:19.265)
to meet the opportunity and bring your skill sets to the table. Specifically, I think the ability to pivot in an organization that large can seem daunting at first. I know of a lot of colleagues and engineers and peers who have consulted me on the topic of how do you navigate this change in such a large company? And I think you have some great insights to share. So tell us a little bit about all these pivots and how did you approach them?

And specifically, am going to hone in on the part that you said, feeling is a big part of you. So let's hear the feeling part of it, because I'm sure there's a logical part of it which people are more familiar with.

Diane Solinger (12:00.642)
Yeah, well sometimes the feeling is not a great feeling.

I've used the phrase square peg in a rectangle hole. Sometimes you're almost fit, you're like, it's just not quite right. And you can feel it in the pit of your stomach. Like maybe this isn't the right culture for me or the purpose and mission of what we're trying to do just doesn't resonate as much as I need for my own values. Or maybe there's something with the leadership style or something that just doesn't fit for you. So just trust your gut. And I've done that.

several times, trusting my gut. And then I was thinking about some books. There's a book that a woman I know, would dare say she's a friend, she's a colleague, her name is Susan McPherson. She just wrote a book called The Lost Art of Connecting and it's been out for maybe a year or two. And this talks to me about the power of networks. So as I developed my career within Google,

And even how I got to Google was through a connection. And that...

Network I used to kind of joke that I could Kevin Bacon game my way through Google because I know someone who knows someone who knows someone like there was a way to like find somebody and Even if I was a couple, know my own personal LinkedIn essentially and I could kind of navigate through the system to find people and I would do a lot of informational interviews Like what you're doing is really interesting to me Tell me what you do. Tell me what you like about it

Diane Solinger (13:38.55)
Tell me what the culture's like and see if there's some connection there. Because when a role came up or does come up, it might have you on their mind and think of you. When I went and pivoted from google .org into the UX team, it came through a friend of mine and a colleague in London.

because I was working with the senior leadership in the London team to do some community engagement, to put executives on nonprofit boards. And a director in UX was interested in that himself. So we started talking and lo and behold, Jens became my manager eventually, because he said, we're looking for kind of this culture, people lead kind of person. And that's how that job came.

from something completely tangential. But we hit it off, and he was thinking he needed somebody like me to come in and work on culture and people experience for their leadership team and for the whole UX team. So that's how that pivot happened. When I went back to work on new employee onboarding, it came through a connection from a woman who started the Disabilities Alliance at Google.

And we knew each other back from the giving and volunteering days that I led because they would do annual campaigns to raise funds for organizations that supported organizations that helped with people with disabilities. And so we had this connection. And when she put the role out there on the disability alias, because I was connected to all the employee resource groups, I'm like, that looks great. Hi.

We talked, boom, boom, boom, and I went. So there's things like that that I think are kind of kismet and magical, and it came down to me keeping my networks alive. And that's how these two projects I'm working on now came to me. One through a connection and a friend here in Portland that works with this organization that is trying to start up and help with nonprofit infrastructure. And the other came through an organization where I served on the board.

Shivam (15:50.071)
Yeah. Fantastic.

Igor Zagre (15:53.708)
Yeah, network is really extremely important, especially today when there are so much changes happening in tech and in general in the industry. And what I admire about your story is the number of pivots you've done in your career. And it's just interesting for me to hear what is your definition of a successful career pivot?

Diane Solinger (16:22.626)
for me, it's when whatever we're trying to drive towards feels like a collective win. That the group of people that I'm working with feel like we achieved something together.

I'm not someone that's me versus we, I am we versus me. I'm about everybody raise the tides for all the boats. That's what I like to do. And so when I think about change management work.

It is about that alignment towards common goals, which is something I love to do, is to try to get people who are on different pages kind of on the same page. You may not all be, you know, 100 % yay, rah, rah, this is perfect, but you're generally going in the same direction. And then you can set some sights on what winning looks like.

and what success looks like. And then I like to celebrate. So celebrate that. And the small things, not just the big win at the end of the one, two, three year, month, whatever plan, the little things. One of my favorite movies is called Moneyball. It's an older movie, but.

Just the idea of getting on base in American baseball, you know, get on, there's three bases and home run. And you're just getting on first base is a win because the statistics shows that if you at least get on base, you're more likely to get around the bases to score a run. And so you have to celebrate those base hits, those doubles, those triples. It's not all about the big home run, big hit. It is about those smaller milestones and taking time to

Diane Solinger (18:09.968)
celebrate them. So those are some ideas around success.

Shivam (18:16.577)
I want to double check. Yeah. Go ahead, Nikoi.

Igor Zagre (18:16.9)
Great, fantastic.

Igor Zagre (18:22.35)
Yeah, I just wanted to continue the thought and it's a career pivot is always a little bit of risk, right? So we anticipate something, but there is always a chance that it will turn out as a success or as a learning opportunity. So my next question, I want to actually to hear, have you ever had, well, those kinds of experiences when...

a career pivot which you anticipated as something great ended up being a learning opportunity and maybe you can share a couple of those.

Diane Solinger (19:05.51)
yeah. And I like saying that they're learning opportunities because they are. They're challenging when you're in them though. And oftentimes things are done to you. You don't have a choice. Like a couple of my pivots were because of reorgs. So when you're in those situations, how do you ensure that you're...

living your values as best as you can because sometimes it feels counter to that and I've been in those situations where I'll use that word feeling again where it just doesn't feel right and that's when I would try to take control of what I could.

So for example, if I was in an organization where I really didn't feel that the culture was right for me, it was not even a square peg rectangle hole, was a square peg and a square and a round hole, it just did not fit. And I knew it and I dreaded going in to work. I dreaded my meetings. I still held true to my beliefs so much, I couldn't let go of what I thought was right. That was also a learning opportunity I needed to.

Igor Zagre (20:04.899)
Okay.

Diane Solinger (20:22.026)
let go of what I was so committed to, to try to make it more of a square peg rectangle hole versus square peg round hole. So I learned a lot there about letting go of my identity and my point of view because I wasn't in charge. And that was a struggle for me. But those types of situations where it feels wrong, it's either find a way to detach yourself

from what's going on and do your job as told. And then if that's still not feeling right, start thinking about what you can do to make a move. And that's when the network would come in play for me. That's when I'd start putting up feelers. That's when I would do those informational calls. And I would say yes to anything that came my way. Not only.

outwardly looking and talking to people, but saying yes to whatever's coming my way so I could learn and think about where I might be able to go. And that opens up opportunities. I think once I found that when I let go of my own labeling or put so much of my ego in it, things tend to come my way. When I hold on too tightly,

I close off things. And it's almost like a manifestation. So let it go and things may come your way.

Shivam (22:00.257)
Yeah, and I think it's especially harder to detect signals, even if things are not happening to you when you're making choices. And it applies to any industry for that matter, because we have a very strong subculture scene that has started to happen in organizations, right? Gone are the days where you have a very large organization and the ethos is felt across the company. That is difficult to achieve. There's so much that depends upon the subcultures that local leadership

Diane Solinger (22:15.65)
Mm -hmm.

Shivam (22:30.123)
will provide, right, or will bring. And that's hard to detect. So you might be making decisions on the basis of a company as a whole, but then you are exposed to a subculture, which you just did not have the signals to detect. And that's hard. And I'm curious if any of the pivots which you led yourself, how did you suss out those subcultures?

Diane Solinger (22:45.058)
That's right.

Shivam (22:54.321)
And especially I know in tech that is, there's some signals that people use is like, well, is it a diverse team? How many women do you see there? Are regions involved? What is the voice of the region? Is it an inclusive team? How do you suss that out when you're making these pivots, especially when you're leading that change personally versus it happening to you?

Diane Solinger (23:07.331)
Right.

Diane Solinger (23:17.26)
Yeah, think it's a two -way street, right? They're interviewing you, you're interviewing them. So the questions, well, maybe you can't be so on the nose about, tell me how many women are on your team or whatever, but you can ask about...

You can look at the leadership team. You can see the composition of the leadership team. You can ask what growth opportunities might be for you. You can ask about the rhythm of business. I think there's something to a team that has regular team meetings, that has an all hands. How is that structured? Am I able to participate? How can I ask questions in that? What's the format?

So those will get you a sense of like the rituals in a team on how it works.

Shivam (24:10.167)
That's 

Diane Solinger (24:12.386)
And if they don't have, you know, if you don't get a one -on -one with your manager or, you know, ever, or I just was talking, I'm coaching someone and she's like, no, my manager never has a one -on -one with me. You need to ask for a one -on -one that is like table stakes. So, you know, and how do you set that up? Just, you know, you get to drive the conversation and here's some tools and tips on how you can do that without saying, Hey manager, you're not managing me well. so these are things you can kind

suss out at the beginning about, you know, are they considerate? Do they want to hear from you? Are you an active member of the team or someone who's just directed? And then...

Other things you can think about like is the role going to be global and if so back to the regions the voice of the regions often gets lost and I know that feeling because of all the people I worked with outside of headquarters and there was always this we are here please listen to us mantra so if you're in a global role you can ask questions about how do you engage the regions what are the mechanisms for feedback start like asking some of those more kind of

organizational design types of questions. And then if you're talking to the person that be your hiring manager, ask them about how they define their leadership style and what their values are in management or leadership. Like for me, transparency is really important. I would like to hear something along those lines. I would like to hear about collaboration. That's important to me. Also like to, I need context.

Don't just tell me to do something, tell me why I have to do this or get to do this. Sometimes you have to do things, but if you can logically understand why, then you can get over the hump.

Diane Solinger (26:07.4)
and go through your own change journey of just executing it against something that maybe it's not the thing that floats your boat or gets you excited, but you can understand why you need to do it. And so you can do it and you will do it well. But when things aren't transparent, that doesn't work for me. So I ask questions around leadership style quite often.

Shivam (26:27.041)
Yeah, and sometimes I shy away from those questions. I myself have shied away from asking the question head on, saying, what are your values or what is your leadership style? But you've encouraged me to do that. One question I did ask since I was pivoting very recently was, how are decisions made in this organization?

Igor Zagre (26:27.81)
Okay.

Diane Solinger (26:44.28)
That's a great one. Decision -making is tricky. And I remember once my skip level was C -suite at Google and I asked him, how are decisions made at Google leads? And he just laughed at me. And he said, Diane, you know, this is a consensus driven organization. And I was like,

Shivam (27:09.218)
Yeah.

Diane Solinger (27:10.09)
somebody has to make a decision at the top. I'm like, yes, I'm sure the CEO comes out and says, know, boom, boom. But I cannot imagine the dynamics at that C -suite, right? Of like a collaborative, really brilliant people all around a table, like going at it and trying to get alignment. You know, I've witnessed it downstream when we've had misalignment.

And that's when things go off the rails, particularly in an organization like HR that needs to execute against something that the C -suite is driving down. You can see it across on products as well, the thrash that happens when people aren't aligned. So yeah, decision -making, great call out because I I had some PTSD when decision -making is not aligned. it is really, really difficult to feel like you can.

Shivam (27:58.685)
It  trust,  collaboration, it covers inclusion. It's just like the single bullet that covers a few values that are dear to me and hence it helps.

Diane Solinger (28:06.281)
Absolutely. Ugh.

Igor Zagre (28:12.14)
What is really interesting is that many people when making a career pivot are trying to understand the culture of organization and they think something which is really interesting that you and Sivan mentioned before is subcultures in organizations. So sometimes it's relatively easy for us to understand the general big picture and to understand the culture of an organization, but

Our listeners are from different countries, different companies. Some work at smaller companies, some work in Big Tech. And I think it would be really valuable and interesting for people to hear a little bit about what is subculture in an organization in general and how can it impact your career path.

Diane Solinger (29:05.73)
Yeah. Everything is down to the leader. Right. So whether it's your next level or up or two levels up, three, four levels up, that leader sets the tone for what the culture is going to be. And while there may be some framework or alignment at the company level around, you know, these are our values and we put them on the back of, know,

put them on our e -signature, put them on the back of one we used to have business cards, that kind of thing. I believe in this. It just feels like whitewash, know, sticking a label on it. So it really does come through on the leader and what they're trying to achieve through their teams. And that tone is really important. Sometimes you can't see that right away, I will say. And that's tricky.

because it may not be a subculture that resonates with you or that you feel comfortable within. I've had that a couple of times. And the good thing about subcultures is sometimes they're sub, sub, subcultures and you can find it lower in the organization where you may have more agency on helping create those environments that are more resonant with you, like inclusive or global or whatever those kind of values are transparent.

and I did find that in some smaller words, when I was in UX, like the VP had his vision of what that culture was going to be. And our job was to help him articulate that and bring it to life. you know, transparency was part of it. So we did these, around the world, ask me anything live, go meet the team, sit down with them and have these round tables where the leadership team would just sit down.

team could ask them whatever they wanted. Like where'd get those shoes even? You know, like it could be whatever they wanted, but just to get to know each other so it created more trust between top and bottom. And then of course there were several layers above, but at that sub sub level there really was a strong sense of connection. And maybe you can find your pockets if you can't find it within your team or your direct team or even your hierarchy.

Diane Solinger (31:28.96)
Sometimes there's other ways to find those subcultures, like through an employee resource group or through, we had these charitable giving groups at Google. So there's different ways to get involved where you can find a place where you belong.

Igor Zagre (31:34.222)
No.

Shivam (31:37.559)
Now, that's a great thought.

Shivam (31:45.193)
Yeah, I think just on why subcultures become pretty critical is especially in very large organizations where you're expecting the message to trickle down to the employees, somewhere the message can get lost in translation. So we might have a culture. Culture is at the end of the day what we tolerate.

It's a very simple way to define it. And we might say in our employee handbook that we do not tolerate aggression in meetings. We don't tolerate a certain kind of behavior. Now, as you trickle it down, it really depends upon the local leader of how are they showcasing those values and what is the tone they are setting. So to say that company acts has this culture, I just think that I just find that very odd. In fact, when I'm doing interviews,

And the interviewee will ask, what can you tell me about the culture of the place where you're in? it's like, which side of it? There's a big culture and a subculture. And what's the culture that I want to bring in my team if you're joining my team? There are different answers. When it's good to...

Diane Solinger (32:52.984)
There's also a personal interpretation of what that culture is. think of one mantra and Amazon has it and some parts of Google have it, but disagree and commit. But nobody says when you have to commit. what's the timeline? So, could be next year. But yeah, I've seen that, disagree and commit, but like, do I have to commit today? That, yeah.

Shivam (32:56.865)
True.

Shivam (33:06.954)
That's the timing.

Shivam (33:11.372)
Yeah.

Shivam (33:20.749)
Very true.

Shivam (33:25.409)
All right, should we go dive a little bit deeper in change and especially change in tech? I've been really waiting to ask a lot of those questions because I was in the receiving end of the changes that Diane, you were bringing on, right? We were both at Google at the same time in the period of the tremendous change. And I was always curious if it is difficult to land change in tech. And I'm gonna pile onto that and make it a little bit more provocative and say, is it even more difficult for a woman?

to land change in tech.

Diane Solinger (33:58.167)
Second question, let me ponder on a little bit. I think it's hard to land change in tech. think it's hard to land change in life, frankly. The challenges in tech are the pace and the getting mind share. Mind share is hard to get anywhere, but I think it's really, really hard in big tech. And I already mentioned the challenges with alignment.

Shivam (33:59.969)
Hahaha!

Igor Zagre (34:01.215)
Thank

Diane Solinger (34:25.974)
getting leadership to align not just on principles, but tactics. It really gets difficult at that point. So, you know, when you literally do have some of the smartest people in the room, you know, in the world, they're going to have an active dialogue on what's right. And they're going to have an opinion, even if that's not their wheelhouse.

So you could have a senior senior leader who's an engineering guru and has been leading forever and has, you know, got all these awards and accolades. So smart. But in my world, were they HR professionals? Heck no. But they're, so getting them aligned on like what to, what it is and what to do is really, really challenging work. And I think the thing I found in tech is the impatience.

and the quarter to quarter kind of mindset that that's not how you can land big transformational changes. You need a longer aperture and a longer runway. And the impatience leads to rash decisions. We have to go now because so -and -so said go now because we need to just rip the band -aid. Rip the band -aid is, I don't know if that's a global term, but just.

pivoting so fast that everybody downstream is lost. They don't know why, they don't know what to do, they're just confused. And so those big shifts are often done a little sooner than they should without being able to build up the network of understanding throughout the teams. So getting that alignment at the top.

but bringing in the next layer so that they're on board and have their own way of understanding and sharing it. Even though it might not be perfect on message, at least they get it, then they understand it, and then they share with their managers, and then the managers bring up the people. A lot of times you don't have time to do that, and you end up making choices to go fast, and then you deal with the repercussions, which is sometimes organ rejection, basically, from the...

Diane Solinger (36:50.05)
from your users. Why did you use that product? That product doesn't work. And no, it doesn't. But we didn't have a choice. We had to go and we couldn't build it fast enough. So we had to buy something and the employees hated it. And then you end up apologizing and apologizing. So those are some of the things I've seen in tech that, you know,

the patience to actually plant the seeds and build it over time to then shift is not there for internal systems. It might be better on external facing products where you don't want to have your customers, your paying customers leave you. Your employees aren't going to leave you unless you tell them to go. Most of them are going to stay there and do the work. So the internal versus external kind of user group.

gets a different level of consideration. And that kind of bothers me, personally. The other thing, back to the, can a woman do this? I think we're uniquely suited to do this, frankly. It's not that you can actually physically do more than one thing at one time, but women do multitask if that's even a possible thing. I think we do that well. I think the other thing is change management is relationship -based.

Shivam (38:12.931)
Mm.

Diane Solinger (38:13.038)
absolutely 100 % relationship based. You have to build trust. They have to know you are on their side, that regardless of what you're delivering, that you have them in mind and you bring them in. You create the space for users to give feedback. You bring that feedback in. So this collaborative facilitation group dynamic, all of us, not just about me, not my product, it's all for all of us, those kinds of things.

I think tend to play into a woman's wheelhouse just more naturally. It takes a heck of a lot of empathy and a lot of endurance to do change management anywhere, but particularly in tech. And it can be draining. So if you don't have the energy and the skills to bring others along, you're just gonna, you're never gonna land anything. It's just gonna be a, and then they don't trust you and they won't work with you again.

Shivam (39:12.437)
You know what's beautiful about what you're talking about, Diane, is that that is true for change in general. This could be, so this we are talking about in the context of HR policies and processes. This could be an organization which is from a performance perspective, maybe not doing so well and you're bringing in a new leader and they have to instrument change. It's a very similar mindset to bring of that empathy and endurance. And so it's quite a universal.

Diane Solinger (39:18.306)
Mm

Igor Zagre (39:18.82)
you.

Shivam (39:44.563)
to do what you're saying.

Diane Solinger (39:45.314)
Yep. And if you compare the sectors I've worked in, I'm also talking to another potential client in the public sector. And everybody is unique. Small company, big company, tech, not tech, social sector, public sector, whatever. Everybody is unique, granted. But like you're saying, change management is a human emotion. You have to have all the process in place. You need to know where you're going and why.

Shivam (39:53.422)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Diane Solinger (40:14.668)
And then you need all the systems to work and have a plan with milestones and a good program manager to help you get through that. But the change part is an emotional shift. It's a mindset shift. It's getting on board. I feel comfortable. I can do this. I'm not going to lose my job if I screwed up. These are the things that are so emotional. And I think sometimes...

Oftentimes a lot of companies, and I would say particularly tech companies, forget that change management is emotional and lean on logic, which you need, 100%. But if you forget some of the emotion, you're not gonna land it well. You're gonna get it done, but people aren't gonna be all excited about it. They're just gonna do the task and check the box. And that's a shame.

Shivam (41:10.539)
Absolutely.

Igor Zagre (41:10.724)
I actually have one question I really want to ask. I think change management is special because usually it comes with lot of resistance from people because people tend to resist change in general. And I think what is so special about your experience that you managed, you've been in change management for such a long time and your experience is really unique.

Can you share a little bit about some ways to help remove the resistance to change and maybe help people feel more comfortable about embracing change in general?

Diane Solinger (41:57.262)
Sure, there's some real, this would be logical steps to get over the emotional hump. But I think the first thing that's super important is people need to know why are we changing? It could be something simple like we're changing, we're changing a policy on vacation time or something, on PTO. Why? People just want to know why.

If you can give people the context, they'll either agree or disagree, but at least they know. And that is step one. People need to know why we're doing something different and what value that change will bring to them, the company, society, whatever it is. So the context is important that, you we would call that a change narrative. We're going from here to here. This is why, and this is why this is a good idea or why we think it's a good idea.

Igor Zagre (42:25.155)
Mm -hmm.

Diane Solinger (42:54.648)
Then the next phase is to listen, take that narrative out on a road show and get the feedback because you don't know all the areas of resistance. So this is part of an assessment step. Get a sense of what's going on. And there's lots of ways you can get that information. It can be through interviews and talking to people one -on -one, especially leaders who are going to need to champion change, or it could be through different systems.

Like at Google, had a great ticketing system where people would bring all their complaints and interests to us. And we would filter that. And you could see where people were having trouble. Yes, there's a whole, that was a great way. So your communication partners are really important and helpful in this too. But yes, get the feedback. We created groups of change networks across the company.

Shivam (43:34.475)
Let's not forget meme gen. mean, I think there's a ticketing system, also there's a one. Yes.

Diane Solinger (43:50.158)
Whether we doing charitable giving, had them, we called them ambassadors, or we were doing the performance management change. We called them change champions, change networks across the company. Those groups were super, they were like boots on the ground, real time feedback. And we would take that information in. Also, as you're designing your programs, co -design, don't design for, design with. That's basic UX. Like take your user experience.

Igor Zagre (43:58.572)
Okay.

Diane Solinger (44:17.428)
expertise from those teams and bring it into whatever program or product you're trying to launch. What are your users saying? Get that research. And then I think the other thing is to enable people to do it. So they need to feel confident that they can actually push the right button at the right time and get the outcome that you're hoping for. And if it doesn't work,

feel comfortable that they can give you feedback that it's not. And that you're gonna listen again, take it into account, get back to them whether you can incorporate it or not, but give them transparency and context again. So it's kind of this cycle of, you know, get the narrative, get the context, tell them why, tell them where we're going, tell them how long it's gonna take, listen to them, engage them, get their feedback.

rinse and repeat and stay connected. Trust is so important in the process. And I worked with one senior director who just was so kind to me, but I felt like that partnership with him was critical. And I could reach out to him on chat and just go.

Igor Zagre (45:22.702)
Hmm.

Diane Solinger (45:36.398)
Okay, this is going on. What do you think? And he'd be like, you know, he'd tell me like straight up, but almost like we had this dialogue that was so fluid and I, he was the bellwether and he led a lot of the major manager discussions across the company. So he could give us a pulse on 30 ,000 people pretty quickly. And he was usually right. And we had that kind of transparent relationship. If we didn't have a champion in that person,

I think that whole journey that we were trying to take our managers through several times through all these pivots would have been even harder.

Shivam (46:15.243)
Allies, that's a pretty strong component of change.

Diane Solinger (46:19.562)
It is. And I think connections. you're a small central team like I was a part of, having connections is nowhere to tell people what's going on with you. that, whether it's your manager, like your manager's equipped to help you, or other types of ally groups like you mentioned, to say this isn't working so well for me, or I'm having trouble with this.

Then peer learning can come into place or online tools could be there to support just resources that others can help reinforce. You do need a lot of people to help you land change. I don't think it's as simple as putting a widget on a site. It is a lot of comfort building. And that takes more connection than I think just shipping something out and saying, it.

I don't think that helps with getting over the hump of feeling like you can do it well and nobody wants to fail.

Shivam (47:23.139)
Yeah. There's a question that's on my mind around this, which let's address that and then we can pivot to personal change because we're talking a lot about organizational change. But in the context of organizational change, do you think things are different now than they were maybe two decades ago? Because the concept of us bringing our full selves to work expects that comfort to be seeked during change.

Whereas even around the time when I was starting my career, change was thrown at you and you had to get along for the ride. This is how you're gonna be doing time management. I remember I was in a consulting firm where they were changing how time sheets were done. And there was a lot of resistance, but there's a reality. This is how you use it. And yes, we want to know every four hours breakdown versus the eight hour breakdown. And I think launching a change of that nature,

Diane Solinger (47:59.501)
Hmm.

Shivam (48:21.653)
in today's context would be much more difficult than it was back then. And I don't know if tech has a role to play in this or in general the generational evolution has a role to play in this. I'm curious about your thoughts, Tan.

Diane Solinger (48:35.139)
I've actually seen a lot of investment in proper change management all over the place. It's really interesting to see the proliferation of the term. I think if I had a nickel for every time...

When we were redesigning the performance management program at Google, that the senior leaders said change management would be critical. I could be, I don't know, I'd be have my own private Island or something. It was every second change management will be critical. Change management will be critical.

Shivam (49:10.019)
you

Diane Solinger (49:10.528)
Great. Now, what do you think change management is? It's a big question, right? Like, I think sometimes they think it's comms and communications. Sometimes they just think it's, you know, a seamless tool. Those are all components of it. Back to where I was, it's the emotional getting over the hump that's the hard part. But I do think now, while there's more investment in change management, there still isn't quite an agreement on what that means. But there is, it's in the vernacular. People are using it, using the term. There are more roles.

in companies, in change management. A lot of times they equate it with a technical implementation. But, okay, it's getting there. So that is definitely something you're changing and you do need all those, you know, steps in place to change a finance system, for example. Those are, finance teams tend to have a lot of change management expertise. There are a lot of changes going on there.

Bet you saw that in corporate engineering as well. Anything that was like internal systems change, companies and teams are starting to invest in change management. And then I think, you know, there is more of an employee demand and a little bit more questioning back to why are we doing this? Is this better? Like, what am I supposed to do with this? There is more of a this affects me situation.

with I would say maybe the Z's. Millennials, meh, but the Z's for sure. Like, what is this doing to me and my career and my balance and does this actually help me and why do I have to do it? It's, my kids, one of my kids is a Z and that is my day with her. She's like, why are we doing this?

Shivam (51:01.475)
Good one.

Diane Solinger (51:03.01)
She's killing me now if she listens to this, but no, she has a lot of questions and I love it. And I think that sense of boundary is very, very typical of the employees these days that are really looking for a little bit more boundary around their life. And then I see companies kind of ratcheting back and trying to tighten that. During COVID employees kind of ruled.

It's not the way it is anymore. So we're going through a correction, a course correction right now. I think it'll balance out, but I am seeing companies just like Amazon's announcement. Everybody get in every day. Boom. And that's a big, big shift that will be met with a lot of resistance. I don't think the message personally was enough to convince people that it's the right thing to do.

Shivam (51:44.836)
Yep.

Diane Solinger (52:01.676)
They will do it because they want their job and there will be a lot of resistance and resentment.

Igor Zagre (52:14.114)
Yeah, let's pivot to personal careers because from my experience the questions related to careers and changes in careers are one of the most popular, at least in my coaching practice. And I wanted to ask you, based on your experience, what, from your perspective, are

the major reasons why people in stable roles, in stable companies even start thinking about pivots and about changes in their careers.

Diane Solinger (52:57.678)
growth, hopefully. Growth and learning.

Last year I took on a certification in HR management because I wanted to grow and learn and learn different disciplines of HR. Like I didn't have any compensation background, right? So I wanted to learn. So I think that should be the driver, right? Something that excites you, something that's new because you want to learn.

or you're at a stage in your life or your career where you're ready to take a risk. Sometimes you're just not. And that's fair. Say you have a young family or you have commitments to others, not only yourself, or you really just feel comfortable right now. It's okay to be comfortable. You know, you don't always have to push hard to get the next thing, but it's being true with yourself.

I kind of wake up every day and ask myself if I'm okay for now.

And as long as I'm okay for now, I'm okay for now. And if something is off, then I try to explore what that is. And then I ask myself, is there something I can do about it? And if there is, then I ask, what can you do? I live by myself, so I talk to myself, right? What can you do about this? And then if there's nothing I can do, I just let it go, or I try to.

Diane Solinger (54:33.708)
because there's only so much you can control, but you have to be comfortable with yourself and your decision every day to get up, take the job you have, or, you know, and make the most of it, or go, you know, find your new adventure. And sometimes your new adventure could be within the context of your current role. I have always volunteered, always. So the idea of board service or nonprofit community,

Igor Zagre (54:56.238)
Hmm.

Diane Solinger (55:03.224)
helping other organizations, coaching others, just even being a mentor somewhere where you're giving of yourself in a different way, that can add to your day -to -day job. especially when I worked before I came to Google, worked with lot of venture capitalists who felt that they were lovely people and they felt sometimes their work was soul -sucking. They didn't like it. They liked the money, they liked the power.

but they want to do something bigger than themselves and a way to help them. I could help them. They could volunteer with me and give them an outlet where they could do something on the side that fed their soul a little bit. So you can expand and grow through volunteering, through taking courses. You don't have to always have it in your job. And that's another question for yourself. Like, is this job giving me the things I need?

Igor Zagre (55:39.171)
Hmm.

Diane Solinger (56:00.812)
Is it enough? And if it isn't, then you explore whether you add on it through these other ways, like volunteering and taking courses or mentoring people. maybe then, if that's not even enough, you go find a new adventure.

Shivam (56:18.455)
Yeah, I think I'm curious. I've been going through these contemplations myself with my recent privates and I've been asking myself quite often if there is a universal definition of growth and my very naive and initial analysis suggests there isn't. Growth is very personal, right? And to Diane on your point, growth could just mean I need a little bit more to add on to my day.

in which I'm giving more and my hours are spent towards a fruitful cause. I personally look at growth as am I solving the next challenge or am I solving a challenge that has been solved before? And that's very personal to me and I don't know how many people would relate to that as a definition of growth but I like to solve new problems.

solve them for a couple of years, max 18 months actually, and then find a way to stabilize that and say, well, we have a solution and now somebody can actually go implement the solution and run it in the long run. And for me, growth doesn't look like being rewarded necessarily because that's a separate value, right? Rewards and recognition is different from growth. And I don't know if that is clear, especially in the context of tech today.

Diane Solinger (57:37.272)
Yes.

Shivam (57:37.293)
because the madness of getting to the next level and seeking the next ladder and not looking at careers as lattices but actually these long, tardy ladders, it's just not going away. And it's probably gotten worse, I think, in the Silicon Valley. I'm pretty sure, you when people, you hear the word growth and you look at the word promotion.

Diane Solinger (57:57.869)
Right.

Shivam (57:57.889)
And that may not be true for you. That is not true for me. And it hasn't been for a little while. My manager, ex -manager actually had to convince me that I should go for a promotion.

Because what I was seeking was like, there's a new challenge there. There's another exciting problem being solved in another part of the company or in another company. And that's what I want to solve. And that was growth. That is the definition of growth. So people just have to step back and ask themselves, what does growth mean to you? And it's a hard place to be because you might then find answers that the world is not ready to hear or is against the grain of what people think growth

Diane Solinger (58:36.97)
against the culture of the company you're in perhaps too because you're right climbing up promotion is often equated with growth. They call it career growth, career trajectory. That's all up. I think there was some intentionality at Google to get rid of the term job ladder.

and make them roll profiles. And the idea of climbing up the ladder, was like, let's get rid of the term. Now that change in and of itself still hasn't landed. That's been two and a half, three years. But there was intention around the change of the name. And

Shivam (59:26.309)
Thank you for sharing that. did not read into it, Diane. I just thought there was a relabeling happening, just like we are relabeling so many things. But I so appreciate that. Thank you. Yes.

Diane Solinger (59:35.251)
It's a mental shift. Let's not just keep climbing up, right? And there were ideas around transfer and transferring with not, you you can maybe move up a level. If you have the skills, you could transfer to a different team, maybe go up a level. So that was the thing. I was a random, rare person that went down a level.

Shivam (59:40.398)
Love you.

Diane Solinger (01:00:02.586)
to learn. And let me tell you, that was perceived differently depending on who you talked to. Some people thought that was really cool, how brave of you, how wonderful, you're going to learn, and others were like, why would you ever do that? And so there's, you know, there's still that culture shift around what growth looks like. And until companies do provide more opportunities for cross -pollination and movement and internal mobility,

I don't think that will be solved. again, back up to leadership alignment, a lot of leaders don't necessarily believe in that level of mobility. And that's a big, big hill to climb. It's gotta start there. But you know, if you have your own personal definition of growth, irrespective of promotion,

that is a great place to start for yourself and to identify those things. And I love that you're thinking, you know, 18 months, I want to be the person that sees a problem, gets it on its feet, turns the page and hands it off. And I think you know that about yourself, that level of self -awareness takes time to understand. If you're early in your career, you may not even know what that looks like for you. So seek a mentor who's maybe...

done some of these pivots and can be a good sounding board for you. Everybody needs that kind of group of advisors around them to help them, you know, make some choices or even just to talk to in a safe place where your manager's not, you know, not that person all the time. We feel like you can actually talk about your manager perhaps with someone else.

Igor Zagre (01:01:54.68)
Yeah, you mentioned seeking a mentor. It's a great advice. I want to ask, do you have any practical advice on how to validate a mentor? mean, how do you actually make that decision if it's a right fit? And do you more trust your gut feeling or is it something more logical? Do you look for some type of credentials?

So how would you recommend someone choosing a mentor or making a decision on being in that mentorship relationship?

Diane Solinger (01:02:36.142)
I some of it is situationally dependent. So I was mentoring someone completely in a different realm of work than me. And the reason why we were connected is because they were new to Google, new to the company.

and coming from a completely different corporate culture and their manager said, you need to understand how works, how stuff works here. So it was, we stayed in touch for a couple of years, but it was really about his acclimation into a new environment and like helping him figure out how his style can mesh with this style. And so it was pointed, it was purposeful. It was really almost time bound.

Right? So there's something like that, that's situational. I've got something I need to work on. Let me find someone who can help me with that specific thing. Then there's the longer term. Like I have a mentor. my gosh. How many years? 20? Like, yeah, I don't talk to her all the time. I don't even know if she thinks she's my mentor, but she is. And I...

Igor Zagre (01:03:41.73)
Bye.

Igor Zagre (01:03:48.257)
Hmm.

Diane Solinger (01:03:51.064)
go to her when I'm at more of a crossroads or I'm lost. She's that kind of mentor for me. And it could be just a couple times a year, but she's always there. And we have become more like friends.

but that's just a different type of coach and mentor. So there's obviously gonna be somebody in between, right, that's gonna be maybe in your skillset or doing the same kind of job as you but at a more senior level. So you can talk about career path more directly there. But, you know, I think there's like something really time -bound and situational. There may be something that's a little longer term within your skillset and then.

like me with mine who, like I don't know what I'd do without her. She's been there forever. So how do you choose? You just gotta get to know them. I mean, give it a shot. It's like trying on shoes. Sometimes they're really soft and comfy like slippers in the beginning and sometimes you gotta break them in and sometimes they just never fit. And you know, I like shoes. So.

Igor Zagre (01:04:59.011)
Hmm.

Shivam (01:05:01.411)
Yeah.

Igor Zagre (01:05:02.079)
Hehehehehe

Shivam (01:05:04.633)
Wonderful. Yeah, I think the personal pivots and the personal change is harder.

especially for women, because they are also subjected to more personal pivots. And what I mean by saying that is, know, assume a situation where somebody is getting married and they have to move the state, right? And if you're from a regional perspective, it's quite common in cultures across the world where, you know, the woman is expected to move to the region where the husband has a job. And so you in general are going through so many pivots and then you go for a maternity leave and you come back, right? You're having kids, you just changed, you've added on a new role in your life.

And somewhere in the midst of all of those changes, your desire for change can get nullified or lost. I happen to be one of those people who actually did two pivots at the same time. I think I've mentioned this to Igor before, where I came to Google and became a mom at the same time. And that was the biggest mistake I've made in my life. You should not have two pivots happening in battle.

a lot of change to actually deal with. But I can imagine that that is a very, there's fear associated with it. I still am traumatized by what was I thinking when I was doing it. It all worked out. At the end of the day, I'm a better mother because I worked at Google. But in the beginning, to even see that as something I would do was fearful. And women are very good at telling themselves stories sometimes, which is like, well, maybe there will be a better time.

I'm curious, Diane, in your journey across all the pivots, if you had a moment where you had to tell yourself, Diane, don't hold yourself back. How did you overcome that? And how did you bring that inner voice to guide you in such situations?

Diane Solinger (01:07:02.368)
I'll give it some of that was an external voice and it was my children. I'm like, go for it. So that was always reinforcing. What are you waiting for? Just do it. You're fine. So I appreciate that. But it does come down to like weighing out all the logical things. Like does it.

Shivam (01:07:13.145)
Yeah.

Diane Solinger (01:07:28.162)
you know, meet these things, do this side by side, you know, comparison between where you are and what it could be. And then your own risk tolerance. Like, you know, how big of a change is this? Is, you know, is the next year, which is usually what it takes to settle into a role, right, is this year going to be okay, and am I going to be okay for a year?

even if it doesn't work out. And that risk tolerance is something you have to everybody like growth, have to assess for yourself, like how much can you take on? I don't like coming from a place of fear. So I do tell myself that you're being fearful. So shut up. Not that it doesn't, it happens. I'm like, you're being fearful.

Igor Zagre (01:08:15.544)
you

Shivam (01:08:25.782)
Well done. Yeah.

Diane Solinger (01:08:26.574)
And do not approach life from a place of fear. People can smell it. They can sense it too. So, you know, being open and optimistic and about the possibilities, just that internal mindset shift is helpful. Because what is the worst that's going to happen? I don't know. You know, chances are you're not going to die and you're still going to land on your feet and

Shivam (01:08:33.379)
Thank you.

Igor Zagre (01:08:53.452)
you

Diane Solinger (01:08:56.256)
you're gonna be okay.

Shivam (01:09:00.377)
Fantastic. All right, with that, we are going to head towards our closing segment. So many amazing stories. I just don't know which one to pick as, like, that seemed like a highlight. Do you have a personal highlight of your career, Diane, where you're like, you know, that was when I aced it. Would love to hear it in your very confident voice.

Diane Solinger (01:09:22.563)
wow.

So many great times and I smile, hopefully you hear it my voice too, but it's because of the people I got to do it with. I love my teams, I love the people I work with. I've been so lucky, so lucky. So the wins have been those. When we felt like we did something really big together, know, upstairs in my closet, there's this report.

The two English majors wrote a corporate social responsibility report for Silicon Valley. were like, nobody had ever done it before. We're like, well, what do got to lose? Nobody ever did this. So my teammate and I sat in a hotel room and banged this thing out with, you know, statistics. It's, my God, us doing math at that point. Much better now. Thank you. But back then we're like, what are we doing?

shove a pie chart in it. Okay. Like we, did this and like that was just fun. And I still have a hard copy of that thing. Like it just was like such a magical moment. Or like when I came into Google and we were leading giving and volunteering, just the ability for us to make that program global and to really push the boundaries of employee matching gift opportunities. We pushed our vendor.

to enable global matching gifts, we pushed them. So now every company that works with them can do that. That scale, it not only scaled for Google, but it scaled for everybody else. And that was like us just being a squeaky wheel with them. And we did it because we had a vision and we needed to do it for our users. So it lifted all the boats for everybody else too. To our UX team, so much fun. Like we had these big summits and...

Igor Zagre (01:10:55.896)
you

Igor Zagre (01:11:07.492)
Thank

Diane Solinger (01:11:21.038)
You know, five, 600 people in the room, we did the biggest in -person user research. Like, we called it Meet the User Palooza, and 200 people come from a community organization down the street, and we just basically, it was an empathy building exercise for people that never really got that close to users that weren't so tech savvy.

Shivam (01:11:44.035)
Wow.

Diane Solinger (01:11:44.044)
It was amazing, so much fun. And then, I don't know, I wouldn't say the coup de grace was changing performance management at Google, but what we did in the trenches there to make that happen, those relationships and the people that are still carrying that torch, I'm forever grateful to them. So, I don't know, of fun wins, but usually because of the people that I got to do it with.

Shivam (01:12:09.389)
Fantastic.

Igor Zagre (01:12:10.862)
So cool. Yeah, it's really amazing. Can you maybe share a little bit about some practical resources, practical routines, books, anything else that you found really helpful along your journey?

Diane Solinger (01:12:29.4)
Yeah, I mentioned one. do think Susan's book is just, just reminds you that it's important to stay connected. So the Lost Art of Connection. There's some oldies but goodies. Yeah, but not new to this world. I've been working for quite some time, but the old Jim Collins book, to Great. But there was one almost like a tiny little pamphlet called Good to Great.

for the social sector or and the social sector, think. And in it, it talks more about collaborative leadership. And he named it legislative leadership. That's kind of what you have to do for change management. It is consensus building, essentially. So if you don't read the oldie but goodie, good to great, get the little one.

Igor Zagre (01:13:00.547)
Hmm.

Diane Solinger (01:13:23.95)
on what it's like in the social sector because I think the parallels are really important in change management regardless of sector that you're in. For another change management, Oldie but Goodie, leading change by Cotter, K -O -T -T -E -R, talks about the importance of leadership a lot in that. And another Oldie but Goodie is by the Heath brothers, Chip and Dan Heath, and it's called Switch.

Igor Zagre (01:13:24.217)
Hmm.

Diane Solinger (01:13:53.324)
Those are just kind of foundational ones that I remember a lot. And I think they wrote another book about decision making that, Shivam, when you were talking about having a new job at a big company and a big role and having a child, like a lot of times people just don't decide to have a baby. Like who chooses to have?

somebody wake you up all night and like insist upon feeding and you know, all the things it's like, the decisions that go into building a family are often more emotional than they are logical. And so it's another one, I don't think it's switched, I have to look that one up, but I've always, heard him speak about that and it just makes me laugh because parenting is like that. Like, God, what was I thinking?

Igor Zagre (01:14:42.105)
You

Diane Solinger (01:14:42.604)
all the night crying, my child's not sleeping, I have to go to work, and I'm just so tired. It made me laugh because the...

Shivam (01:14:51.147)
And on top of that, I have a new manager, a new team, a new company that I don't know the rules for. To be honest, I was just grateful for the free food and the mother's that Google was giving. For the first six months, it was just that.

Diane Solinger (01:14:53.974)
Yes! Yes! It's just so much! What am I doing to myself?

Thanks.

That's right.

Yep. But anyway, those are, those are a few and don't forget to, there's always a network of people, whether you know or not, you just have to ask and don't be afraid to ask because people like to help people. They really do give them a chance to help you.

Igor Zagre (01:15:18.296)
Mm -hmm.

Shivam (01:15:28.459)
Wonderful. That's a lovely closing in itself. But one last question before we wrap, and that is what final advice you have for men and women who are looking towards the holiday season. It's going to be a time when they're to recount the year that went by, take stock of are they feeling like it when they wake up? Does it still feel okay? Are they feeling okay? And

As they think about change, I personally get very reflective towards the end of the year, and I think that's common across cultures and regions. What would you recommend that they motivate themselves with as they look towards that, perhaps, foreseeable change? Yeah.

Diane Solinger (01:16:13.774)
Yeah, it is that gut check really. Is it, is this good? Is it good for now? Am I okay? Am I growing in my own definition of growth? So it's a lot of self reflection. Just take some time, write things down. And I think, you know, new year's resolutions often get lost. So be easy on yourself, you know, just like don't make a 30.

Shivam (01:16:37.827)
you

Diane Solinger (01:16:40.494)
page list of things that you can't possibly do. Just directionally get a sense of like, is this good? Am I okay? Or do I really want to be thinking about something different? And then if so, what are the conditions to make that happen? What do I have to do? What does the world need to do for me? What's the timing? What's my family situation? What are my commitments? So think about

the conditions you need to make a pivot, even if it isn't a full switch, just adding something like board service or coaching and mentoring into your wheelhouse. That takes time and time is the finite thing we can't change. So, you know, think about what are the right conditions for some of those shifts for you and then give yourself a little plan. Nothing hard. Don't you can you pressure.

Project manager lives like everywhere. Life admin is hard enough with all the things we have to do. So give yourself some grace, but you know, maybe make sure you do something once a month towards that or put a timeline in place on when you really want to make a hard pivot. But what are the steps you need to do to get to that and create that environment conditions, as I said, to make it happen. But don't be too hard on yourself.

New Year's resolutions, like I said, don't stick usually. So if it doesn't, that's okay. That meant the time wasn't right.

Shivam (01:18:16.198)
Thank you so much. This has been a fantastic session. Hearing your journey through the years, industries, roles, organizations, just how you've taken charge of your career and navigated it almost flawlessly and how it sounds is quite an inspiration. And thank you for being a real woman in tech and coming and sharing your thoughts with us today.

Diane Solinger (01:18:38.296)
So much fun. Thank you. guys are wonderful. Congratulations on this too. All right.

Igor Zagre (01:18:41.112)
Thank you.

Shivam (01:18:43.075)
Thank you.